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we're running on water supplies

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remember tired we can't beat this bunch

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we might as well give up

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it's been 47 days now damn it that's how

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long the general said it wouldn't last

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i got it from one of the prisoners i

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heard

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don't you just love the romans i know i

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do

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that's a short clip from a bbc

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documentary on

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ancient rome and that's vespasian

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talking about those pesky jews that he's

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trying to put down in the first revolt

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in 66

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a.d and most importantly he's talking

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about that strange prisoner general

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josephus who makes all these amazing

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predictions

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boy oh boy i don't know where to begin

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folks you're gonna hear a lot

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on this history of josephus

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the spazian the fake fake history

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that's told to us that can be

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demonstrated

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deep deep

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implications for what the real

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history probably was it would take

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a long time to fill in all the gaps

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and i can't really do it here you're

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gonna get bits and pieces like you

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normally do in this show

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and maybe you can help guide me towards

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how we can compile this into something

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meaningful

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maybe you can even help maybe you know

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more about these topics than i do

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there are many of you out there that i

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know have some very specialized

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knowledge

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but i have a terrific interview

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to kick off this series it's with a

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gentleman

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i really like and respect and i think

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he's written a great book that you'll

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enjoy

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and he certainly has a fascinating story

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to tell

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about the romans in america

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in the second century and he has

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i would say overwhelming archaeological

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evidence

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at least compared to the mainstream

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historical narrative which i i got to

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tell you we need to get into this with

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dave but like one little story he tells

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is

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he's done

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coins that he's found forts that he's

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uncovered or the army corps of engineers

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have uncovered which

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date back to the second century date

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back to

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being in the hands of the romans and

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date back to having connections with

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jewish people and what he faces

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in opposition to that research from

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the mainstream the ordained history

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is unbelievably ridiculous like again i

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was gonna tell you this little story

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like one of the explanations for

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mainstream history

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in terms of how these coins from the

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second century

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wind up in the ohio valley is well maybe

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a bird flew over you know it had the

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coin in his beak

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how stupid is that you know maybe there

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was a flock of birds

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and they all had coins and they dropped

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them

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in and around the same place another

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explanation

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this is from mainstream history in order

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to prop up the ridiculous

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narrative that they need to promote on

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this is

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maybe a coin collector went to the beach

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i couldn't and lost his coins

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on the beach and then they got washed up

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and they got found

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like yeah you know hey we're going to

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the beach uh

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let me swing by my uh safe deposit box

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at the bank

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and pick up my collection of golden

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roman coins

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what's you know it's funny except that

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this really is kind of

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what we sometimes square up against when

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we're dealing with

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mainstream history and religious history

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which we'll get later

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into on this topic and i think we have

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to really

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uh check ourselves and avoid even

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engaging in that discussion because it

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really is so stupid

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and when you engage with that kind of

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stupidity

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you can't look anything other than a

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little bit stupid yourself

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as i said there's a lot more to come on

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this topic but

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i hope you enjoy this one

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with dave brody so there's there's a

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human element involved in this as well

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but for whatever reason i think the

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pieces fell together that day it

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happened to be the right people making

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the right deal

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there was enough treasure to grease the

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skids

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they somehow knew where to go don't

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forget the roman legions

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were comprised of the conquered

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phoenician and carthaginian

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groups so they they they you know

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they're like the borg and star track

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they basically

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they they just take everybody in and

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that becomes who they are and so

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to the extent they would have the ninth

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legion by the way was based in the

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iberian peninsula so they would have had

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plenty of

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members who have family experience as

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part of the

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the punic wars and the carthaginians and

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the phoenicians and

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history of crossing the atlantic and

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navigating

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all that all those skills have been part

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of the ninth legion

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex sacaris

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and today we welcome david brody to

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skeptico

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dave is an attorney turned historical

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fiction writer

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author of multiple amazon best sellers

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and boston globe bestsellers including

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his latest

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which is probably headed in that

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direction i think

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america roman artifacts in america

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which is a great fiction story

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but also is kind of wrapped around this

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history or this you know kind of

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forbidden history kind of thing that

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there's a lot of evidence archaeological

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findings and other historical evidence

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highly suggestive of romans being in

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america

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in second century so this

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is kind of right up my

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recent interest in this ancient history

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i'm of course interested in where that

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takes us in terms of consciousness and

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spirituality

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and some of these other things but i was

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really really impressed

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with uh with dave's work particularly

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what he brings

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as an an attorney someone who's used to

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kind of sorting through evidence

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translate as sorting through

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to get to the truth so i just thought it

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was a great opportunity and i really

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enjoyed the book which the book

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by the way you know i just pulled it up

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this is another one of those

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free read if you're on kindle unlimited

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now buy it

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of course buy dave's book but if you

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want to read it for free and if you have

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kindle unlimited you can do that too so

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uh without any further

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david brody welcome to skeptico thanks

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so much for joining me

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yeah thanks axel thank you for the kind

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words thank you for having me i

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appreciate it

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so tell us more about your background

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who you are right so i'm one of those

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you know law school graduates one of

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those lawyers who always wanted to be a

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fiction writer there's a bunch of us who

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got as we graduated college so they got

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pushed off

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into either law school or you go get

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your master's degree in writing or you

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go to journalism school

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those are sort of the three options for

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english majors and i went to law school

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but i'd always wanted to be a writer and

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over the years i would sit down on a

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weekend try to do something and

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finally um when my wife and i settled in

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we had children i started writing

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legal thrillers and i'd written three of

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those legal thrillers and was looking

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around for an idea for a fourth one

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this was a 2005-2006

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time period living in a suburb of boston

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westward massachusetts

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looking for an idea for what i thought

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was going to be a fourth legal thriller

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and my daughter came home from school

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one day in the fourth grade and said you

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know i said what would you do today of

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course and there

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she was young enough to actually give me

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an answer at that point instead of

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nothing you know she gave me the answer

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and she said we learned about the legend

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of prince henry sinclair coming to

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america

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a hundred years before columbus and

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coming to westford the town we lived in

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and i was like i never heard of that but

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it turns out there's a legend in our

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town

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of scottish explorers basically island

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hopping their way across the north

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atlantic much as the norse had done

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in the early 11th century coming

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down the coast from nova scotia down

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past maine and

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up the merrimack river and into the

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merrimack valley

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and as the legend went one of the guys

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in this group his name was gunn

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james gunn uh died and to memorialize

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the death of this night

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the group carved an effigy of a knight

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into the rock ledge top the highest hill

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in the area

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and that effigy still exists today and

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there's a you know taurus

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marker and people come and visit and

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basically carved into the ledge you can

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faintly make out a

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knight you can very clearly make out his

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sword his battle sword

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and that's the westford knight legend

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and i started looking at other

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sites and artifacts that might be

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consistent with that legend

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this is where the lawyer in me comes out

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you talked about it earlier to me it's

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all about evidence

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and if we're gonna have a legend like

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that okay legends are fun but if we're

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gonna try to rewrite history

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and talk about columbus being a hundred

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years late to the party

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then we should have other evidence it's

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like trying to convince a jury of your

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case you're not going to be able to win

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the case with one piece of evidence

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but if you have six or seven really

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compelling pieces you can you can win

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that case

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and so i said if if they really were

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here there should be other evidence for

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that

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and quickly

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what i thought was going to be my fourth

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legal thriller turned into

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a series of 11 fixed historical fiction

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novels

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entitled the templars in america series

286
00:10:17,590 --> 00:10:16,399
and romerica is the 11th in that series

287
00:10:18,310 --> 00:10:17,600
really not having much to do with the

288
00:10:19,829 --> 00:10:18,320
templars

289
00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:19,839
but all of them relate to this whole

290
00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:21,360
concept of

291
00:10:25,670 --> 00:10:23,040
groups of european and mediterranean

292
00:10:27,829 --> 00:10:25,680
explorers coming across the atlantic

293
00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:27,839
prior to columbus the idea that the

294
00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:29,839
atlantic ocean was a highway

295
00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:32,800
and not a barrier but as you said it's

296
00:10:35,990 --> 00:10:34,560
all evidence-based you've got these

297
00:10:37,350 --> 00:10:36,000
sites you've got these artifacts you've

298
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:37,360
got these ancient maps

299
00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:39,760
you've got pieces of evidence and either

300
00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:40,560
we

301
00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:44,240
of ignore it and

302
00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:46,240
put our head in the sand and and wonder

303
00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:48,000
why we can't see

304
00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:50,160
and that's why i'm here today talking to

305
00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:51,680
you about this stuff i'm very passionate

306
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:52,800
about it

307
00:10:55,910 --> 00:10:54,399
well you know that's awesome and one of

308
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:55,920
the things i really enjoyed about the

309
00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:56,959
book and i think

310
00:11:00,470 --> 00:11:00,079
other people will too is you know you

311
00:11:03,350 --> 00:11:00,480
have

312
00:11:04,310 --> 00:11:03,360
all these links at the end i don't know

313
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:04,320
how many pages

314
00:11:10,069 --> 00:11:07,760
in america this latest book but

315
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:10,079
50 60 depends if you're reading it on

316
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:11,040
kindle i don't know

317
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:13,120
but with all these links you know so

318
00:11:18,069 --> 00:11:14,959
here uh

319
00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:18,079
good historical links of ships around

320
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:20,560
plum island at boom you can link to it

321
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:21,600
and here those

322
00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:26,720
are so what you've really done here is

323
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:28,480
combining sifting through the

324
00:11:31,990 --> 00:11:30,000
archaeological work

325
00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:32,000
the good historical work is out that

326
00:11:34,310 --> 00:11:33,760
it's out there but you're also pointing

327
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:34,320
out

328
00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:36,880
some of the kind of shoddy historical

329
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:37,519
work

330
00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:40,320
that's out there and particularly i love

331
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:42,160
the whole pre-columbia

332
00:11:50,069 --> 00:11:47,040
idea because even the term pre-columbian

333
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:50,079
already kind of pigeonholes you as some

334
00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:50,959
kind of uh

335
00:11:54,629 --> 00:11:53,360
conspiracy guy you know going against

336
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:54,639
the grain kind of thing

337
00:11:58,949 --> 00:11:56,959
rather than just hey what is the

338
00:12:02,230 --> 00:11:58,959
evidence about the earliest

339
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:02,240
visitors to the americas yeah you make a

340
00:12:04,949 --> 00:12:03,600
good point so when i started doing this

341
00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:04,959
i started lecturing probably

342
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:07,600
12 years ago on this subject and at that

343
00:12:09,910 --> 00:12:08,480
time

344
00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:09,920
most people were skeptical to the

345
00:12:13,750 --> 00:12:12,000
possibility of anyone here before

346
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:13,760
columbus we all grew up with

347
00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:16,639
in 1492 columbus sailed the ocean blue

348
00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:17,360
and you know we

349
00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:20,240
celebrate columbus day in october but

350
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:21,040
over the past

351
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,000
dozen years that ocean liner really has

352
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,079
redirected itself and now

353
00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:28,079
people like you say things like what you

354
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:29,120
just said which is

355
00:12:32,790 --> 00:12:30,480
why are we even propping up that whole

356
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:32,800
columbus thing anymore so in half a

357
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:33,920
generation

358
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:35,519
we've actually made a lot of headway and

359
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:37,040
now people realize

360
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:39,120
yeah the norse were definitely here to

361
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,399
me i always say to people look

362
00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:42,399
we know for a fact the norse were here

363
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:44,240
in the early parts of the 11th century

364
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:47,040
leif eriksen all those icelandic sagas

365
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:48,959
the north sagas we know they were here

366
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:51,040
we know they came down at least as far

367
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:52,720
as northern new finland and now most

368
00:12:55,350 --> 00:12:53,600
experts say

369
00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:55,360
that lonzo meadow site was just a

370
00:12:59,750 --> 00:12:57,120
stopover point they came down

371
00:13:01,590 --> 00:12:59,760
probably as far as maine new brunswick

372
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:01,600
but we're sure of at least new brunswick

373
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,040
so they're right on the right on the

374
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:05,200
doorstep of new england already

375
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:07,279
to me it would be more surprising if

376
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:09,120
over the next 500 years

377
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:11,440
after the norse were here that nobody

378
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,480
came back

379
00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:14,639
that's way more surprising than the idea

380
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:16,480
that people did

381
00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:18,880
like to me it's 500 years it's great

382
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:20,160
reasons to come over here

383
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:23,680
trading uh mining cop whatever it was

384
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:26,560
economic advantage lots of all the land

385
00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:27,279
you know

386
00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:30,160
the land of plenty there's plenty of

387
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:31,760
great reasons for coming over here

388
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:34,000
and it's part of the human condition to

389
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:36,079
to seek out new life a new civilization

390
00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:37,440
as star trek says

391
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:40,160
and and so again the idea that the

392
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,000
atlantic ocean was a barrier

393
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:44,480
during medieval times and before that's

394
00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:45,760
that's a fiction that you know the

395
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:47,760
church wanted people to be afraid

396
00:13:50,949 --> 00:13:49,279
of falling off the edge of the earth if

397
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:50,959
they crossed the atlantic but that was

398
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,720
because they wanted to maintain control

399
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:54,560
they wanted they didn't want people

400
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:56,399
exploring and being scientific

401
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:58,560
but most educated people understood that

402
00:14:03,030 --> 00:13:59,440
there were

403
00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:03,040
lands across the atlantic and

404
00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:04,639
this goes back to ancient atlantis and

405
00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:06,079
whatever but goes way back but

406
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:08,720
again to me the takeaway the surprising

407
00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:09,839
thing would have been

408
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:12,800
if nobody came back between the norse

409
00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:15,600
and 1492 that's almost 500 years

410
00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:18,160
that would be surprising to me well what

411
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:19,120
i think is

412
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:20,480
kind of really interesting where you

413
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:22,720
went there a couple of ways dave is

414
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:26,240
one you're pushing it way back at least

415
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:28,160
it seems to us you're pushing it way

416
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:29,600
back and we'll dive into that in a

417
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:31,120
minute because you're pushing it back to

418
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:32,880
the second century

419
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:35,040
and you're pushing it back to rome but

420
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:36,480
let me just throw in a couple of things

421
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:38,399
that i picked up from uh

422
00:14:42,069 --> 00:14:40,399
another interview that i heard you do

423
00:14:43,509 --> 00:14:42,079
because you have a kind of broad

424
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:43,519
knowledge of all this

425
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:46,639
stuff that i want to kind of tap into

426
00:14:53,189 --> 00:14:50,079
and that's that we've kind of moved from

427
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:53,199
one kind of wacky paradigm that we

428
00:14:57,910 --> 00:14:55,120
shouldn't look before

429
00:14:59,269 --> 00:14:57,920
columbus and we've moved off of that and

430
00:15:02,069 --> 00:14:59,279
now we move to the

431
00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:02,079
oh okay we can look to kind of the

432
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:04,079
medieval period like you're saying and

433
00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:05,600
the norse did it and you know

434
00:15:09,189 --> 00:15:07,680
but we want to stop there when really we

435
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:09,199
have no reason to stop there

436
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:11,040
like you point out the phoenicians who

437
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:12,320
are the

438
00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:14,399
people in lebanon right and they were

439
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:16,240
great seafarers and they

440
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:18,000
kind of sailed all around in boats

441
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:19,360
bigger than columbus

442
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:21,440
you could also point out that you know

443
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:23,120
the whole easter island thing i mean

444
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,720
that's a harder ocean to cross

445
00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:26,320
and you got all that and then you got

446
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:28,480
all the connections in south america

447
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:29,839
you also got all this other

448
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:31,279
archaeological evidence and

449
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:33,040
pharmacological evidence that's popped

450
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:33,600
up

451
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:37,360
with you know pompeii

452
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:40,800
is showing up with cannabis and uh with

453
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:44,079
uh cocaine and with other products that

454
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:47,440
only come from the americas as are even

455
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:48,480
you go back to the

456
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:50,240
to the egyptians and the mummies they're

457
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:51,680
they're finding cannabis

458
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,639
and cocaine so really the the fact that

459
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:56,560
they've even been able to

460
00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:00,399
you know perpetuate this kind of slow

461
00:16:05,189 --> 00:16:03,680
roll it back begrudgingly give the norse

462
00:16:07,269 --> 00:16:05,199
you know their little piece

463
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:07,279
is kind of a more of the kind of

464
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:08,959
controlled narrative and

465
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:10,800
so you kind of bust through that in kind

466
00:16:16,389 --> 00:16:13,040
of a really direct way and just say

467
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:16,399
well clearly that's all out the window

468
00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:18,800
i'm going to focus on

469
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:20,800
second century and the reason you focus

470
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:22,560
on it is because

471
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:23,759
you know i didn't really bust through

472
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:25,360
the door like you just said i really i

473
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:26,000
sort of went

474
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:28,000
through it very slowly as when it gets

475
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:29,040
to the second century

476
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:30,720
so as i've been doing the research over

477
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:33,199
the past 14 years about the medieval

478
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:34,160
stuff

479
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:36,000
periodically i would find sites and

480
00:16:40,629 --> 00:16:38,720
artifacts that were older than that

481
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:40,639
um we'll talk about a lot of them as we

482
00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:42,079
go along today and i would set them

483
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:43,600
aside and say that's

484
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:46,240
an interesting curiosity it's a an

485
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:47,120
outlier

486
00:16:50,389 --> 00:16:50,079
or a one-off or whatever it might be and

487
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:50,399
at

488
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:53,279
a certain point um about a year ago i

489
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:54,240
started looking at

490
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:58,079
my my pile of outliers

491
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:00,399
and started realizing that an awful lot

492
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:02,720
of them are second century roman

493
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:04,880
like more than you would expect to just

494
00:17:07,829 --> 00:17:05,839
have random

495
00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:07,839
and i started saying huh and and it was

496
00:17:10,630 --> 00:17:09,120
about the same time my wife and i

497
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:10,640
relocated to the north shore of

498
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:12,240
massachusetts and i started learning

499
00:17:15,909 --> 00:17:13,120
about

500
00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:15,919
uh all the all the roman era coins that

501
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:17,199
had been found

502
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:20,240
after major storms in the area uh people

503
00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:22,319
who go out metal detect out on a barrier

504
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:23,839
island in plum island

505
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:26,160
and and um as you showed earlier a link

506
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:27,760
to eight shipwrecks there's so many

507
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:29,280
shipwrecks off of plum island

508
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:30,960
and i said jeez all these roman coins

509
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:32,400
where are they coming from i mean they

510
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:34,400
probably weren't in a colonial ship

511
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:37,520
maybe there's a roman era ship out there

512
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:40,240
that got disturbed during a storm and

513
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:40,799
and and

514
00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:42,799
and coins that were sort of nestled in

515
00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:44,320
them got freed up

516
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:46,160
and washed ashore and that would explain

517
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,080
why six or seven

518
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:50,400
different places along the north shore

519
00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:52,720
have have people have found these

520
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:54,720
roman era coins around the second

521
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:56,240
century so again

522
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:59,120
there's evidence and if we have evidence

523
00:18:02,310 --> 00:18:00,000
we either have to throw

524
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,320
it away and say it's it's not credible

525
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:04,240
but if we do think it's credible

526
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:05,840
and in this case i i did think it was

527
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:08,160
credible there has to be a story

528
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:10,400
behind it how did it get here and why

529
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:12,480
and again to go back to your question

530
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:15,120
it i i i took me a while but i suddenly

531
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:16,080
realized that there's

532
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:18,240
a lot of it that is second century that

533
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:20,160
i haven't been able to explain

534
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:22,080
and so now looking at it sort of freshly

535
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:23,840
and saying okay maybe all the second

536
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:24,880
century evidence

537
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:26,799
tells the story and that's how i ended

538
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:28,960
up with with the book romerica

539
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:31,280
and again i might have the details of

540
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:32,640
that story wrong i might have the story

541
00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:33,280
wrong

542
00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:35,679
but there is a story to be told here

543
00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:36,400
there is

544
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:38,640
real evidence real artifacts that have

545
00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:40,400
been scientifically proven to date back

546
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:41,360
to the roman era

547
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:42,880
there has to be an explanation for how

548
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,360
they got here they didn't swim across

549
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:47,039
themselves

550
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:50,080
well it's a it's a fun story if you will

551
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:51,200
it's a fun

552
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:54,240
book put in a a narrative and it's

553
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:55,600
storytelling and

554
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:57,200
you kind of bounce back and forth

555
00:19:00,789 --> 00:18:58,880
between saying you know

556
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,799
stay with me for the story it'll be fun

557
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:02,640
but what i'm really trying to do

558
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,679
is sprinkle in all this important

559
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:07,760
new history and archaeological stuff so

560
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:09,760
talk a little bit about the story

561
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:11,840
it is part of a series but it's not like

562
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:13,600
somebody has had to read a bunch of the

563
00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:14,240
other

564
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:16,480
books in the series talk about the book

565
00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:18,080
itself right you you read this one first

566
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:19,039
i've been guessing you didn't read the

567
00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:20,000
other ones i assumed we

568
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:22,320
didn't have time yeah so it's they're

569
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:23,200
designed to be

570
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:26,000
alone and basically the story um i was

571
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:26,799
told

572
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:29,120
as a young author that the best way to

573
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:30,320
be successful

574
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:32,799
as a writer is to write in the genre

575
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:34,080
that you like to read in

576
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:36,400
and i love to read historical fiction

577
00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:38,000
you know clive kessler the

578
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:40,880
thrillers based on historical artifacts

579
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,360
uh

580
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:43,840
da vinci code type things so i try to

581
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:45,280
write in that genre too so

582
00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:46,480
people say why don't you write

583
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:48,320
non-fiction all these artifacts all this

584
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:49,039
history

585
00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:50,720
and my response is i think it's more fun

586
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:52,559
to have a little spoonful of sugar

587
00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:53,760
as you're taking your historical

588
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:55,840
medicine and history can be fun but can

589
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:57,280
also be exciting it can be a roller

590
00:20:00,630 --> 00:19:58,320
coaster ride you can

591
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:00,640
you can have really fun a fun time with

592
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:02,240
it and that's what i try to do with this

593
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:05,280
you'll get plenty of history you earlier

594
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:07,200
alex showed that all the footnotes at

595
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:08,640
the end you know my law professors are

596
00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:09,919
really happy with me for putting

597
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:11,840
footnotes at the end and my sources and

598
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:13,760
stuff most fiction writers don't do that

599
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:15,200
but i want the readers to understand

600
00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:16,320
that the history

601
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:17,840
and the sites and the artifacts that i'm

602
00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:19,840
writing about they're real and they're

603
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:22,080
authentic even though the story that

604
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:23,760
carries a reader through

605
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:25,760
the journey the story itself is

606
00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:27,679
fictional but but the history that we're

607
00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:28,880
learning about

608
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:31,280
is real and so that's one of the reasons

609
00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:32,000
why i put the

610
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:34,320
artifacts the footnotes at the end and i

611
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:35,520
also put as you mentioned

612
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:37,600
pictures of all the sites and pictures

613
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:39,120
of all the artifacts and because i want

614
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:40,640
the readers to understand

615
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:42,720
these are real we're looking at the the

616
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:43,919
terra cotta

617
00:20:49,029 --> 00:20:47,440
from mexico i want the readers to see

618
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:49,039
that i'm not making that up

619
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:51,760
and when i say it dates back to a

620
00:20:54,950 --> 00:20:53,360
certain date

621
00:20:57,029 --> 00:20:54,960
luminescence testing tells us it's

622
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:57,039
second century i'm not making that up

623
00:20:59,430 --> 00:20:58,400
and that's why i put those footnotes in

624
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:59,440
there because

625
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:00,960
again even though the story itself is

626
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:02,880
fictional the the

627
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:04,720
historical parts of the story are

628
00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:06,480
authentic and real

629
00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:08,080
yeah i was just popping up on the screen

630
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:09,840
and maybe you want to talk through

631
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:12,480
uh you have a number of uh interesting

632
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:13,520
photographs

633
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:15,840
in the book and then you also sent me to

634
00:21:20,149 --> 00:21:17,039
some additional ones

635
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:20,159
you know coins that have been found and

636
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:21,200
uh

637
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:25,919
fort

638
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:29,440
shaped like uh medora

639
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:31,120
got right menorah and an oil lamp that's

640
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:32,960
a fort that was and this is a drawing

641
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:33,919
from the

642
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:36,400
army corps of engineers from 1823 this

643
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:37,600
is a fort

644
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:40,400
uh they call it fort works basically you

645
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:40,799
know

646
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:42,240
the fort itself is no longer there but

647
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:44,000
you can see that where the outline

648
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:46,640
of the of the palisades would have been

649
00:21:51,190 --> 00:21:47,679
what not the the

650
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:51,200
the the outline of the old fort

651
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:54,400
this is 1823 in ohio and for folks just

652
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:55,120
let me just

653
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:56,960
interject for folks who can't see it

654
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:58,720
because most people listen to this show

655
00:22:03,350 --> 00:21:59,919
and don't watch it

656
00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:03,360
but right uh the the menorah is

657
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:06,880
clearly clearly can't be anything else

658
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:11,440
in this drawing and even the lamp uh

659
00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:14,480
can't be anything else so uh this is

660
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,520
going to kind of launch us

661
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:17,760
into a really interesting discussion but

662
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,360
again i just wanted to emphasize

663
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:21,840
1824 army corps of engineers where did

664
00:22:28,149 --> 00:22:25,039
you find this document

665
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:28,159
the internet is a great thing i mean a

666
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:30,240
a generation ago alex you know i

667
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:31,520
couldn't have done this research it

668
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:32,880
would have been impossible just

669
00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:34,480
you would have to go down to washington

670
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:35,919
dc and and

671
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:37,840
and crawl your way through the through

672
00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:39,120
the stacks and

673
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:41,120
microfiche and whatnot but everything's

674
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:42,880
been digitized now and so if you want to

675
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:43,520
look at

676
00:22:46,710 --> 00:22:45,440
army corps of engineer drawings you can

677
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:46,720
go find them and it's

678
00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:48,880
it really has made i get the question

679
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:50,240
all the time how come we're just

680
00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:51,360
learning about

681
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:54,320
uh second century roman occupation or

682
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:55,679
exploration of america

683
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,919
i think the answer is the the clues have

684
00:23:02,789 --> 00:22:59,280
always been out there

685
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:02,799
but no individual researcher has been

686
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:04,480
able to put their hands around more than

687
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:05,679
one or two pieces

688
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:08,640
of it because it was also scattered and

689
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:09,520
spread out

690
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:10,960
now with the internet someone like

691
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:13,440
myself can come along and and i can find

692
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:16,559
15 or 20 artifacts and sites in a matter

693
00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:17,600
of a few weeks

694
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:20,480
on the internet whereas you know 30

695
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:22,080
years ago it would have taken me decades

696
00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:23,919
to do that

697
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:26,720
yeah that's that's cool i mean totally i

698
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:27,280
i

699
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:34,320
that

700
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:37,440
people are following and uh you know if

701
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:38,320
i want to switch

702
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:40,320
a little bit from talking about this

703
00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:41,360
excellent book

704
00:23:45,269 --> 00:23:43,919
that i really do want people to uh check

705
00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:45,279
out america

706
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:46,960
because the research i think you'll find

707
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,400
if you're at all intrigued

708
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:50,640
by this point half an hour into this

709
00:23:53,430 --> 00:23:52,240
interview then you got to read the book

710
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:53,440
because it's all there

711
00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:54,799
all the links are there all the

712
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:56,559
information's there but

713
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,559
i want to try and pull dave in a little

714
00:24:02,630 --> 00:24:00,480
bit of a different direction

715
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:02,640
for selfish reasons for this project

716
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:04,000
that i'm doing because

717
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:06,799
what intrigued me about america was

718
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:07,520
second

719
00:24:14,310 --> 00:24:11,279
century rome and this strange

720
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,320
relationship that it reveals about the

721
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:16,320
relationship between

722
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:19,279
the roman military and a kind of a

723
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:20,400
breakout

724
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:23,840
of that the relationship between judea

725
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:26,559
and rome but also before we even get

726
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:27,919
there

727
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:31,039
i want to go back to what you just said

728
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:34,480
i i'm really uh suspicious because

729
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:37,679
of my investigation science is that

730
00:24:41,909 --> 00:24:39,919
to the extent to which this narrative is

731
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:41,919
intentionally being controlled which is

732
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:42,559
really kind of

733
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:44,240
obvious we talk about the pre-columbian

734
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:46,799
thing but even controlled in the sense

735
00:24:49,669 --> 00:24:47,760
that

736
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:49,679
you couldn't have written this i'm not

737
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:51,520
so sure you could have written this as a

738
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:52,799
non-fiction book

739
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:55,600
but you certainly if you were an

740
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:57,600
academic historian you couldn't have

741
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:03,590
what does that say about just the state

742
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:07,520
of academia in general i've been more on

743
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:09,039
the hard sciences but in the soft

744
00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:10,640
sciences it's even worse i mean it's

745
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:11,279
just

746
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:14,240
it really kind of controlled completely

747
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,120
controlling the narrative

748
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,799
you're you're 100 right about that i

749
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:20,400
could not have written this as an

750
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:21,600
academic type

751
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:24,880
unless i wanted to basically commit uh

752
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:27,600
um professional suicide i would have

753
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:28,720
been laughed

754
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:31,360
out of the the faculty lounge at

755
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:32,559
whatever university i

756
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:34,640
happen to be working on at the time and

757
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:36,159
what's really telling i belong to an

758
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:37,600
organization called new england

759
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:39,840
antiquities research association

760
00:25:43,269 --> 00:25:42,080
and what we do we go out in the woods

761
00:25:45,669 --> 00:25:43,279
and and and do

762
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:45,679
and do this research we look for these

763
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:47,360
ancient sites and artifacts

764
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:48,960
and there's a few hundred people at

765
00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:51,279
least in our organization or 500 people

766
00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:53,360
and very very very very few of them

767
00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:55,279
probably a minuscule number of them

768
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:57,200
are actual historians or archaeologists

769
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:58,400
most of them are

770
00:26:02,230 --> 00:26:00,559
people like myself or like yourself who

771
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:02,240
who do this as a hobby because we're

772
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,520
passionate about it

773
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:05,679
but the but the people trained in

774
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:07,440
history and archaeology want nothing to

775
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,480
do with this

776
00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:10,559
and this goes back to what you said is

777
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:11,600
is is

778
00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:14,240
is there sort of uh indoctrinated into

779
00:26:18,549 --> 00:26:15,679
these ideas

780
00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:18,559
uh they learn them going through college

781
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:19,279
they are

782
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:21,520
are punished for thinking outside of

783
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:23,120
that box when they say punish

784
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:24,720
they're they're not allowed to do a

785
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:26,480
thesis on that subject if they do

786
00:26:28,789 --> 00:26:28,000
they're not going to be hired or get

787
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:28,799
tenure

788
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:30,960
they're basically herded along in a

789
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:33,600
certain way to think the way

790
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:37,039
uh their professors are thinking

791
00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:39,200
and it's hard to break out of that and i

792
00:26:44,549 --> 00:26:41,520
don't think it's necessarily because

793
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:44,559
there's a conspiracy to keep the reality

794
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:46,240
and the truth away from us i don't think

795
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:47,360
that's what's happening

796
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:49,360
i think instead it's just basic human

797
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:50,400
nature that

798
00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:52,000
people have staked out a position and

799
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:53,919
academics have taken out a position

800
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:55,919
that certain things are the truth and

801
00:26:58,870 --> 00:26:57,440
certain things are reality

802
00:26:59,990 --> 00:26:58,880
and they don't want to be proven wrong

803
00:27:00,950 --> 00:27:00,000
because they don't want to have egg on

804
00:27:03,430 --> 00:27:00,960
their face

805
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,440
and so they they dig in their heels

806
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:04,960
again just human nature they dig in

807
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:07,120
their heels and they basically

808
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:09,520
put their hands over their ears and

809
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:10,880
close their eyes and say i don't wanna

810
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:11,279
you know

811
00:27:15,269 --> 00:27:13,120
sergeant schultz i see nothing i hear

812
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:15,279
nothing um

813
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:16,960
again it's not because there's a great

814
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:19,520
conspiracy but mostly just because

815
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:21,840
people are selfish and don't want to

816
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:22,720
have

817
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:26,559
see i

818
00:27:29,669 --> 00:27:28,000
we don't have to spend a lot of time on

819
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:29,679
this but to me the evidence of the

820
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:30,720
conspiracy

821
00:27:37,510 --> 00:27:34,640
is evident in what you just said in that

822
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:37,520
at the at the middle management level

823
00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:38,880
that you're talking about

824
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:41,679
yeah there's no conspiracy i i control

825
00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:43,039
your job dude

826
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:45,600
i control your tenure i control what

827
00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:48,399
conferences you go to or don't go to

828
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:50,000
it doesn't look it doesn't have to look

829
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:51,679
like a conspiracy to you

830
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:54,480
it just looks like you you know being

831
00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:56,240
able to go home and face your wife and

832
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:57,200
say yeah

833
00:28:01,029 --> 00:27:58,640
we're going to still be able to make

834
00:28:02,070 --> 00:28:01,039
mortgage payments but at a level above

835
00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:02,080
that which you just

836
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,520
as you just talked about you said the

837
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:05,520
church wanted to control the narrative

838
00:28:08,710 --> 00:28:06,880
because they wanted to be in control

839
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:08,720
well that's conspiratorial and it

840
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:12,000
clearly is right now as more and more

841
00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:13,760
gets revealed today about

842
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:15,840
how completely corrupt the church is but

843
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:18,000
we don't ever want to call the church on

844
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:19,520
that you know we still have to

845
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:22,080
walk carefully in science you know my

846
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:23,200
thing has been

847
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,880
this idea of controlling the narrative

848
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:26,399
about consciousness

849
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:28,000
that there can be no extended

850
00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:30,000
consciousness that any kind of

851
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:31,840
spiritual experience that people are

852
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:34,720
having is completely

853
00:28:38,389 --> 00:28:36,960
a delusion it doesn't happen and the

854
00:28:39,669 --> 00:28:38,399
holding to that in the face of all

855
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:39,679
evidence to contrary

856
00:28:44,149 --> 00:28:42,480
is conspiratorial it's a way to control

857
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:44,159
and social engineer people so i think

858
00:28:48,389 --> 00:28:44,640
this

859
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:48,399
stuff from the social engineering

860
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:52,559
lens and and start accepting that

861
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:54,399
and this is rome this is what i love

862
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:56,159
about roe is that

863
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:58,559
you know the romans knew this 2000 years

864
00:29:02,149 --> 00:28:59,600
ago that

865
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:02,159
when you about social engineering about

866
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:03,360
controlling the people

867
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:06,320
as an alternative to dominating the

868
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:07,360
people through war

869
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:09,200
we can dominate the people through

870
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:12,159
beliefs and ideas and stuff like that so

871
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:13,919
we don't have to kind of agree on that

872
00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:15,440
or don't have to hash that out any

873
00:29:18,549 --> 00:29:16,080
further

874
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:18,559
because let's get back to kind of the

875
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:19,600
book a little bit

876
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:22,720
indirectly and that's that this story

877
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:27,120
about second century rome and judea

878
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:31,520
is just it's a phenomenal

879
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:34,559
phenomenally important to our history

880
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:37,520
to our present day history because it's

881
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:38,720
all about

882
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:41,200
the forming of christianity it's all

883
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:41,919
about

884
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:45,360
the control of uh the jewish tradition

885
00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:48,559
and the jewish religion and why it gets

886
00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:50,720
pulled along in the whole thing and and

887
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:51,919
it also points to

888
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:54,399
a different way that the romans thought

889
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:55,919
about these different

890
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:58,880
evolving religious ideas and religious

891
00:30:02,789 --> 00:29:59,600
traditions

892
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:02,799
so enough of me going on what did you

893
00:30:06,830 --> 00:30:06,320
find out that is so stunning about this

894
00:30:11,269 --> 00:30:06,840
second

895
00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:13,269
right so i mentioned earlier in the

896
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:15,279
interview that there was a number of

897
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:17,360
sort of pieces of evidence that i found

898
00:30:19,909 --> 00:30:18,880
that were clustered around the second

899
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:19,919
century

900
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:23,039
that i put aside over the years and and

901
00:30:26,789 --> 00:30:24,640
and eventually came back to when in

902
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:26,799
writing this book and one of them was

903
00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:28,480
a researcher in indiana by the name of

904
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:30,799
rick osmond about 10 years ago wrote a

905
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:32,080
book about how

906
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:34,799
uh he had come across and documented a

907
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:35,760
bunch of

908
00:30:40,230 --> 00:30:39,279
roman era fortifications in the ohio

909
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:40,240
river valley

910
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:42,720
and he came up with a theory that in the

911
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:43,840
second century

912
00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:45,600
and this is true historians you can this

913
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:46,960
is mainstream historians

914
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:49,360
uh the the ninth roman legion which was

915
00:30:52,070 --> 00:30:50,080
stationed

916
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:52,080
at hadrian's wall between england and

917
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:53,279
scotland

918
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:55,440
in the second century for some reason

919
00:30:59,509 --> 00:30:57,200
that that legion which is

920
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:59,519
probably 10 000 people essentially

921
00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:00,559
disappeared

922
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:02,080
no one's quite sure what happened to

923
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:04,320
that legion and rick osmond

924
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:07,279
speculated that perhaps that the these

925
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:09,360
ports in the ohio river valley were

926
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:10,320
related

927
00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:13,519
reason

928
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:15,200
he didn't really put a finger on it the

929
00:31:18,310 --> 00:31:16,960
legion decided to cross the atlantic

930
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:18,320
either they were blown off course they

931
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:19,519
came over here for a reason

932
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:22,720
and ended up being the the reason why

933
00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:24,960
there's so many roman era artifacts and

934
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:27,360
fortifications and coins in the ohio

935
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:28,960
river valley

936
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:30,320
well i took a little further i did a

937
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:32,080
little more research and i found that

938
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:35,840
um after leaving hadrian's wall

939
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:37,760
uh in the early parts of the second

940
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:39,279
century the ninth legion actually was

941
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:40,399
redeployed

942
00:31:45,029 --> 00:31:43,360
to jerusalem and then disappeared what

943
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:45,039
they were doing in jerusalem was

944
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:46,960
putting down something called the

945
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:49,440
barkaka uprising markovka revolt this is

946
00:31:52,789 --> 00:31:51,360
about 132 a.d

947
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,799
your listeners may remember that in

948
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:54,720
about 70 a.d we had something called

949
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:56,159
king herod's war

950
00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:58,880
where herod put down the rebelling jews

951
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:00,960
and the temple was of solomon was

952
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:02,399
destroyed the rebuilt temple was

953
00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:03,440
destroyed

954
00:32:06,549 --> 00:32:05,679
about 70 years later the jews rose up

955
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:06,559
again

956
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:09,679
and this time led by simon barcaka

957
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:13,120
freedom fighter barkhopka being

958
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:16,399
hebrew for uh son of the star

959
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:18,480
or also known as the comet which is

960
00:32:22,149 --> 00:32:20,240
another word for son of the star

961
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:22,159
and the slogan for this this uprising

962
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:23,360
was a comet

963
00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:25,519
for the jews barkhoff got a comet for

964
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:27,200
the jews that was a slogan

965
00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:29,440
um so one of the possibilities and we

966
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:30,880
also know by the way that during this

967
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:31,679
uprising

968
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:33,760
we know this from uh one of the dead sea

969
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:34,960
scrolls called

970
00:32:38,549 --> 00:32:38,080
the copper scroll of qumran uh which is

971
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:38,559
actually

972
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,320
not most of the scrolls are partial this

973
00:32:45,669 --> 00:32:42,159
is on copper and this scroll

974
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:45,679
lists 70 or so locations of

975
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,399
hidden temple treasure basically as the

976
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:50,640
romans came in to put down the rebellion

977
00:32:54,789 --> 00:32:52,480
the priestly families who were in charge

978
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,799
of the temple said we better hide our

979
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:56,640
treasures and our and our gold

980
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:58,080
furnishings and whatever before the

981
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,960
romans come

982
00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:00,480
and we'll retrieve them later and so

983
00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:02,240
they they made this list um

984
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:04,080
carved into the copper as to where these

985
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:05,600
things were in case

986
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:06,960
in case they weren't around to tell the

987
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:09,120
survivors where to find all this stuff

988
00:33:12,389 --> 00:33:11,200
um so one of the possibilities is i'm

989
00:33:14,549 --> 00:33:12,399
kicked through this whole scene

990
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:14,559
the ninth legion goes to jerusalem puts

991
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:15,760
down the revolt

992
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:18,399
at some point all the jews are being

993
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:18,960
either

994
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:21,120
murdered or sold into slavery and the

995
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:22,799
priestly families say time out

996
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:25,039
hold on ninth legion hold on guys we got

997
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:26,240
a deal for you

998
00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:29,120
we've got about 1.5 billion dollars

999
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:30,720
that's in today's money

1000
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,480
worth of temple treasure and we want

1001
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:36,320
to get out of here we need our lives

1002
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:38,080
saved if you take us with

1003
00:33:41,110 --> 00:33:39,679
you out of europe out of the

1004
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:41,120
mediterranean away from

1005
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:43,360
the emperor we'll give you the 1.5

1006
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,159
billion

1007
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:46,320
and that i thought may explain how they

1008
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:48,720
ended up collectively the romans and the

1009
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:49,120
jews

1010
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:50,799
we have roman artifacts and we have

1011
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:52,640
jewish artifacts again the hanukkah for

1012
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:54,159
it there's no reason for the romans to

1013
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:55,440
build something like that well you have

1014
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:56,399
other artifacts

1015
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:58,159
we can look at also but that would

1016
00:34:03,509 --> 00:34:00,399
collectively explain how we have

1017
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,519
roman and jewish artifacts in

1018
00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:05,440
the ohio river valley in the second

1019
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:07,120
century so that's

1020
00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:09,280
again that's the fiction writer in me

1021
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:10,639
putting pieces together and that's

1022
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:11,520
speculative i

1023
00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:13,440
i can't say for certain that happened

1024
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:15,040
and that's why i say you know something

1025
00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:16,800
happened i'm not sure if i have it right

1026
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:18,639
but that's definitely a possibility the

1027
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:20,800
pieces of evidence support that

1028
00:34:24,149 --> 00:34:22,320
possibility

1029
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,159
dave what have you found out about the

1030
00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:26,480
relationship between

1031
00:34:33,109 --> 00:34:29,599
uh the romans and

1032
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:33,119
the the various jewish groups

1033
00:34:36,710 --> 00:34:34,800
the groups in judea because a lot of

1034
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:36,720
people don't understand this but

1035
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:40,720
uh judea like all these client states

1036
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:44,879
in in the roman empire

1037
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:48,720
there's a lot of uh kind of vichy france

1038
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:50,560
thing going along you know like

1039
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:52,560
hey the romans aren't so bad and look at

1040
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:53,839
all the good things and

1041
00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:55,599
hey let's give unto caesar what is

1042
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:56,960
caesar's kind of thing

1043
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:59,920
so it's not like so they have their

1044
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:00,960
rebellion

1045
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:03,599
flank and then they have their herod you

1046
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:04,640
know give them to see

1047
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:08,079
so what is in this time period at this

1048
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:09,680
second revolt

1049
00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:11,520
what do you do did you dig up anything

1050
00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:13,440
interesting about the relationship

1051
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,839
there because what you're speculating

1052
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:17,440
about

1053
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:20,079
is to me doesn't even sound like a

1054
00:35:25,589 --> 00:35:22,960
time-out timeout it sounds like uh

1055
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:25,599
hey guys here's an idea kind of thing

1056
00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:27,680
you know

1057
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:29,920
well so the relationship with the romans

1058
00:35:32,790 --> 00:35:30,720
and and

1059
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:32,800
and the roman empire and the jewish

1060
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,000
groups this is

1061
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:37,200
all during a time period where uh and

1062
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:39,760
and the reason why jesus was able to

1063
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,280
start preaching and be welcomed as a

1064
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:42,880
potential messiah

1065
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:46,160
the the prophecies were this was a time

1066
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:47,280
period where

1067
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:49,440
where a messiah would be coming and so

1068
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:50,720
it's a lot of upheaval

1069
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:52,400
in it right around this time period and

1070
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,320
so there were different

1071
00:35:59,349 --> 00:35:56,800
factions of jewish groups all looking

1072
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:59,359
for different things the romans come in

1073
00:36:02,630 --> 00:36:01,040
and they either stir the pot or they

1074
00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:02,640
play one side off the other and

1075
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:04,800
you know it's it's a mess right now it's

1076
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:06,079
a time of upheaval

1077
00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:09,680
and so we have we see these constant uh

1078
00:36:13,589 --> 00:36:12,160
uprisings again herod's uprising and

1079
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,599
then barcock is uprising and

1080
00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:15,359
by the time barack hopkins uprising is

1081
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:17,599
over basically there are no jews left

1082
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:20,640
in jerusalem that's the end of it but

1083
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:23,520
but at the same time we we lose all the

1084
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:24,800
temple treasures like

1085
00:36:28,870 --> 00:36:26,240
the stuff that was supposed to be in

1086
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:28,880
jerusalem the golden menorah the ark of

1087
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:30,240
the covenant the

1088
00:36:35,349 --> 00:36:33,200
table of shrew bread the uh aaron's rod

1089
00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:35,359
the the pot of manna

1090
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:37,119
if you go if you want to go to the

1091
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:39,440
christian side of things the holy grail

1092
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:40,320
the cross

1093
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:42,880
of jesus was buried was crucified on you

1094
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:44,079
know none of those things ever been

1095
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:44,880
found again

1096
00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:47,920
so the jews leave at around this time

1097
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:48,880
period but so do

1098
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:50,560
all the artifacts the religious

1099
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:53,119
artifacts from judaism and christianity

1100
00:36:58,230 --> 00:36:55,119
and some of them ended up back in rome

1101
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:58,240
can i interject a question there um

1102
00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:00,560
and i just don't know this what do we

1103
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:01,920
think happened

1104
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:05,280
to all those super valuable

1105
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:08,560
jewish artifacts during

1106
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:11,520
you know titus's sacking of jerusalem

1107
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:12,480
some of it

1108
00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:14,400
gets bring back and brought back to rome

1109
00:37:17,589 --> 00:37:15,760
and they parade down

1110
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:17,599
we've got the arch of titus which shows

1111
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:19,200
the carving i think you just said that

1112
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:20,960
of some of the artifacts and but even

1113
00:37:24,870 --> 00:37:23,119
those ones seem to have disappeared but

1114
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:24,880
that's not all of them that was the main

1115
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,720
one being the templar shrew bread

1116
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:28,560
and the golden menorah and i use the

1117
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:31,119
gold menorah as a as sort of a

1118
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:33,760
plot device in my story because that's

1119
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:34,640
never been found

1120
00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:38,320
no one knows where that is um but others

1121
00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:40,480
of them the rumors have it that the ark

1122
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:41,440
of the covenant

1123
00:37:45,109 --> 00:37:43,680
uh is in ethiopia there was a story a

1124
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,119
couple weeks ago about a

1125
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:47,920
uh militia group attacking the church in

1126
00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:50,160
rural ethiopia trying to capture the

1127
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:51,839
the ark and i've always laughed at that

1128
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:53,920
because if you if you know the world war

1129
00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:55,920
ii history and you know how obsessed

1130
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,680
hitler was with finding the ark of the

1131
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:59,200
covenant i mean we all saw

1132
00:38:01,829 --> 00:38:00,480
raiders of the lost ark and that's

1133
00:38:03,109 --> 00:38:01,839
basically the nazis trying to find the

1134
00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:03,119
ark of the covenant

1135
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:05,680
um mussolini controlled ethiopia during

1136
00:38:07,829 --> 00:38:07,280
world war ii if the ark of the covenant

1137
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:07,839
was in

1138
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:10,079
ethiopia in world war ii mussolini's

1139
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:10,880
forces would have

1140
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,320
found it and given it to hitler i mean

1141
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:14,240
that was there's no doubt about that

1142
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:17,040
so i don't believe that the ark is in

1143
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:18,800
ethiopia being guarded by

1144
00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:20,640
you know a handful of priests that just

1145
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:22,160
doesn't make any sense to me

1146
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:25,440
um if it's not there you know where is

1147
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,160
it there's

1148
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:28,320
evidence that the portuguese and

1149
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:30,240
medieval times went down to

1150
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:32,640
ethiopia may have taken it and but then

1151
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:34,400
again where did it go after that so

1152
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:36,800
so part of what makes writing fiction so

1153
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,839
much fun

1154
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:40,079
is because there's all these treasures

1155
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:41,599
that have never been found

1156
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:43,200
and and and everyone loves a good

1157
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,880
treasure hunt everyone you know

1158
00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:46,720
the curse of oak island on on history

1159
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:48,320
channel everyone watches that

1160
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:50,160
because everyone wants to find the

1161
00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:51,680
treasure and so

1162
00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:53,359
one of the fun things i do in my books

1163
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:55,520
is you know i weave these in it's the

1164
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:56,560
golden menorah

1165
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:58,560
is it in play is the ark of the covenant

1166
00:39:01,910 --> 00:39:00,000
in play you know are we gonna find

1167
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,920
those things the holy grail whatever it

1168
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,520
might be um

1169
00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:05,280
because i think that's you you need if

1170
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:06,640
you're gonna have characters

1171
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:09,359
motivated to do you know really

1172
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:11,440
extraordinary things

1173
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:13,680
uh you need to have extraordinary high

1174
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:15,280
stakes you need to have high stakes

1175
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:16,480
people aren't going to do extraordinary

1176
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:17,040
things

1177
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:19,200
over you know 20 bucks but if you get

1178
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:20,480
the ark of the covenant

1179
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:22,800
now you're going to do some crazy things

1180
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:24,720
well that's certainly the line that

1181
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:26,240
you're going down

1182
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:28,160
uh let me just kind of bounce a couple

1183
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:30,000
of things off you that i've been working

1184
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,400
on

1185
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:32,560
and and kind of or investigating at the

1186
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:33,839
very early stages

1187
00:39:37,349 --> 00:39:35,440
and i don't have nearly the depth of

1188
00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:37,359
knowledge that you do so i'm just kind

1189
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:38,960
of stumbling through this but i'm kind

1190
00:39:41,829 --> 00:39:40,160
of intrigued by

1191
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:41,839
what you said because i think sometimes

1192
00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:43,599
we misunderstand

1193
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:47,440
the roman agenda as it's being disclosed

1194
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,000
to us

1195
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:50,240
like uh josephus i think is a super

1196
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:51,839
interesting character

1197
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:54,560
obviously in that first uprising right

1198
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:55,119
and

1199
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:59,440
this

1200
00:40:02,790 --> 00:40:01,680
jewish general who fights bravely

1201
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:02,800
against the

1202
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:05,839
vespasian who comes in and he stands him

1203
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:07,200
off at a siege and then

1204
00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:09,440
he goes in to commit suicide and the

1205
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:11,359
story always gets

1206
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:14,240
really flaky at this point and

1207
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:16,720
invariably historians leave the most

1208
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:18,400
important part of the story out and

1209
00:40:21,190 --> 00:40:19,119
that's that

1210
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:21,200
josephus goes into the cave they all

1211
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:22,640
commit suicide and then

1212
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:25,760
josephus says hey you know what i just

1213
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:27,520
had a revelation

1214
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:29,680
we should come out and then he says

1215
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:32,160
vespasian you're going to be the emperor

1216
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:34,160
and then vespasian takes him under his

1217
00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:35,920
wing and says you're a good kid

1218
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:38,079
come along and write this history down

1219
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:39,119
for us because

1220
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:40,720
we don't know how to write it you're the

1221
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:42,560
only guy who can write it i mean this

1222
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:45,040
whole thing is just preposterous

1223
00:40:48,309 --> 00:40:46,400
go ahead this is a really good book

1224
00:40:49,990 --> 00:40:48,319
talking about this if you get a chance

1225
00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:50,000
it's called the secret society of moses

1226
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:50,560
by

1227
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:53,200
barbaro but yeah exactly what you were

1228
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:54,000
saying there were

1229
00:40:57,270 --> 00:40:56,880
how convenient is it to for josephus

1230
00:40:59,270 --> 00:40:57,280
that they

1231
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:59,280
they draw lots and he everyone's got to

1232
00:41:01,109 --> 00:41:00,560
kill themselves in the order of their

1233
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,119
lot and

1234
00:41:05,030 --> 00:41:03,359
he's the last guy standing and like he's

1235
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:05,040
the last one he's not instead of killing

1236
00:41:08,470 --> 00:41:06,079
myself maybe i'll go talk

1237
00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:08,480
and i'll cut a deal and essentially what

1238
00:41:11,430 --> 00:41:09,839
i think happened in this book talks

1239
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:11,440
about it and what you hinted at

1240
00:41:15,910 --> 00:41:13,760
he basically cuts a deal this is back to

1241
00:41:16,870 --> 00:41:15,920
again josephus is part of the priestly

1242
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,880
family

1243
00:41:20,069 --> 00:41:18,720
and they're the guardians of the temple

1244
00:41:21,829 --> 00:41:20,079
treasure and

1245
00:41:24,069 --> 00:41:21,839
you can ransom yourself out of a lot of

1246
00:41:26,470 --> 00:41:24,079
predicaments if you've got enough money

1247
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:26,480
and i think what happened is josephus

1248
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:28,720
said to vesuvius uh us to bespecially

1249
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:29,920
i'm sorry that um

1250
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:31,119
you know what i've got this temple

1251
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:33,280
treasure and you need it if you want to

1252
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:34,640
become emperor

1253
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:37,280
here it is let me come back to rome with

1254
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:38,240
you and eventually

1255
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:40,800
he was adopted into the royal family

1256
00:41:42,870 --> 00:41:41,359
right

1257
00:41:44,390 --> 00:41:42,880
josephus was even though he was supposed

1258
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:44,400
to be a jewish freedom fighter all of a

1259
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:47,440
sudden he's adopted into the family

1260
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:50,240
and and and the treasure is used to

1261
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:51,680
bring about the next emperor

1262
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:53,920
and so the deal is made that's a great

1263
00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:55,760
point david you just added something

1264
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:57,760
really cool to that about the treasure

1265
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:59,760
so i'm so glad you did that but here's

1266
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:01,040
the here's the other thing i want to

1267
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:02,000
kind of throw on the table

1268
00:42:07,589 --> 00:42:03,200
and see what you think because everyone

1269
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:07,599
leaves this out josephus not only says

1270
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:09,040
espaizi and you're going to be the next

1271
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:11,440
emperor which is supposedly prophecy

1272
00:42:15,349 --> 00:42:13,520
but he also says the most important

1273
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:15,359
thing in terms of a social engineering

1274
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:16,160
conspiracy

1275
00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:18,160
kind of thing which it just clearly is

1276
00:42:22,470 --> 00:42:19,839
because in his autobiography

1277
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:22,480
josephus says hey i am super jew you

1278
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:23,040
know

1279
00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:26,400
at 14 years old i was in the temple

1280
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,960
kind of talking down to the priest

1281
00:42:32,470 --> 00:42:30,640
telling him what it is because i knew

1282
00:42:34,309 --> 00:42:32,480
the jewish law so completely

1283
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:34,319
which he kind of contradicts himself

1284
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:35,760
later in his works because he doesn't

1285
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:37,440
really even know the jewish laws he's

1286
00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:38,240
talking about it

1287
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:40,240
but he wants his readers to think that

1288
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:42,880
he's this kind of super jew from a very

1289
00:42:46,069 --> 00:42:44,800
exclusive family and he's seen all the

1290
00:42:47,670 --> 00:42:46,079
different tribes of

1291
00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:47,680
of israel and he knows there's the

1292
00:42:49,990 --> 00:42:49,440
zealots and he gets along with all of

1293
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:50,000
them

1294
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:52,800
it all builds up because what he says

1295
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:54,400
and more of the jews

1296
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:58,319
is that i now understand

1297
00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:01,680
that our tradition all our prophecies

1298
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:04,880
point to vespasian as

1299
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:07,920
the messiah and this is super

1300
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:10,240
important and it's buried because again

1301
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:11,440
it's one of these things that doesn't

1302
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:12,800
fit in the story

1303
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:16,800
because like you gave a very kind of uh

1304
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:19,520
worldly explanation for the negotiation

1305
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:21,200
he might have done which is awesome

1306
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:22,880
about going to get the treasure but we

1307
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:24,400
also have to look at from a spiritual

1308
00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:25,520
standpoint right

1309
00:43:29,270 --> 00:43:28,560
this is after all a spiritual guy who's

1310
00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:29,280
speaking to

1311
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:31,920
a spiritual religious group and he's

1312
00:43:35,430 --> 00:43:32,800
saying

1313
00:43:36,109 --> 00:43:35,440
and he never backs down from this he's

1314
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:36,119
saying

1315
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:42,720
all of our jewish traditions should be

1316
00:43:47,349 --> 00:43:43,680
rewritten

1317
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:47,359
so that vespasian and the emperor

1318
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:50,560
and and this i think is really uh

1319
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:51,920
a turning point for the whole thing

1320
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:54,480
because it points to me clearly

1321
00:43:58,069 --> 00:43:56,720
an attempt to socially engineer to kind

1322
00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:58,079
of quell the masses

1323
00:44:01,990 --> 00:44:00,640
to re-engineer their religion as a way

1324
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:02,000
of controlling that

1325
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:05,040
do you remember coming across that in

1326
00:44:08,710 --> 00:44:06,800
josephus because i can send you

1327
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:08,720
obviously the exact clip

1328
00:44:12,390 --> 00:44:10,800
so i'm more cynical about it than you

1329
00:44:14,069 --> 00:44:12,400
are because i think i think joseph was

1330
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:14,079
basically

1331
00:44:17,750 --> 00:44:16,240
he got religion or spirituality because

1332
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:17,760
he was on the verge of having commit

1333
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,880
suicide

1334
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:20,400
the rest of that story not only did he

1335
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:22,000
save himself but he was able

1336
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:25,119
to convince the romans to free about 200

1337
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:26,800
of his friends and family

1338
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:29,200
again you know these people were all

1339
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:31,280
ready to be executed they were in

1340
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:32,800
prison camps or whatever and he walks in

1341
00:44:36,230 --> 00:44:34,800
basically says you you you

1342
00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:36,240
and they're all free and they all get to

1343
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:38,319
go back to rome with him so i think what

1344
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:39,599
happened was

1345
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:41,920
you know he sold his soul in that

1346
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:43,920
situation it wasn't it wasn't a

1347
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:46,000
spiritual transformation it was

1348
00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:47,839
basically self-preservation he said

1349
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:49,359
my only chance to get out of this

1350
00:44:52,630 --> 00:44:51,760
predicament with my friends and family

1351
00:44:54,069 --> 00:44:52,640
by the way

1352
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:54,079
we can all go back to rome and start

1353
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:56,000
over again is i got to sell this guy

1354
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:57,359
vespasian on the on

1355
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:00,720
the belief that i think he's the next

1356
00:45:06,470 --> 00:45:04,000
the prophesied one whatever and and and

1357
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:06,480
and how and make it happen and once i do

1358
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:07,920
make it happen

1359
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:09,920
now all of a sudden i'm the favorite son

1360
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,920
and it turns out he was he was adopted

1361
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:13,520
into the family he was given a

1362
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:15,680
his own chalet he gets to write his

1363
00:45:18,309 --> 00:45:16,720
histories and

1364
00:45:19,589 --> 00:45:18,319
you know things are great but i guess

1365
00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:19,599
i'm more cynical about it i don't think

1366
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:21,440
it was spiritual as much as it was

1367
00:45:24,470 --> 00:45:23,760
self-preservation we're kind of saying

1368
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:24,480
the same thing

1369
00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:26,240
kind of a different way but not maybe

1370
00:45:30,870 --> 00:45:28,000
not exactly because

1371
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:30,880
if you take the cynical approach and say

1372
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:32,160
that it wasn't a genuine

1373
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:34,800
spiritual transformation which i i would

1374
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:36,160
agree with you

1375
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:39,520
then i think it's hard to uh not say

1376
00:45:42,470 --> 00:45:40,319
that it was

1377
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:42,480
engineered by the romans because this is

1378
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:43,680
what the romans did

1379
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:46,240
right with every territory they'd go in

1380
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:48,079
and they'd co-opt the people's religion

1381
00:45:51,109 --> 00:45:50,000
they'd go in and say hey you know what

1382
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:51,119
turns out

1383
00:45:55,750 --> 00:45:53,760
you have these gods we have kind of the

1384
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:55,760
same god so you know we're really not

1385
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:56,480
that different

1386
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:00,319
after all so the idea of uh

1387
00:46:04,069 --> 00:46:03,119
this co-opting of your most sacred

1388
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,079
beliefs

1389
00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:07,200
as a way of controlling you is kind of

1390
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:09,920
well established so i think that that

1391
00:46:13,750 --> 00:46:10,720
becomes the

1392
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:13,760
only way to understand josephus

1393
00:46:18,309 --> 00:46:15,920
is that he's writing on behalf of the

1394
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:18,319
romans because otherwise he has no

1395
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:21,599
he really has no uh reason to do this or

1396
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,760
maybe put it a different way the

1397
00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:24,960
benefits

1398
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:28,160
for rome for the potential of doing this

1399
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:30,400
are just fantastic i think one of the

1400
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:32,000
reasons that we don't

1401
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:34,319
quite grab on to it so much is it's a

1402
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:36,240
failed proposition right

1403
00:46:40,390 --> 00:46:38,560
even though they bring over he brings

1404
00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:40,400
over his 200 and they probably bring

1405
00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:42,640
over 50 000 slaves

1406
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:45,760
there isn't this mass conversion to this

1407
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:49,200
new idea that this bayesian is

1408
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:51,520
is the messiah the jews don't leave

1409
00:46:55,750 --> 00:46:52,640
their religion

1410
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:55,760
in masses as the second revolt says

1411
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:58,640
but i think to to understand it as

1412
00:47:02,309 --> 00:46:59,280
anything

1413
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:02,319
less than an attempt to

1414
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:06,400
engineer the religion to re to co-opt it

1415
00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:09,119
i i to me that's kind of self-evident

1416
00:47:12,230 --> 00:47:10,240
what do you think

1417
00:47:13,589 --> 00:47:12,240
yeah yeah no i agree i i don't think you

1418
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:13,599
and i disagree very much on this at all

1419
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:14,560
i think we're

1420
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:15,920
basically on the same page in the end it

1421
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:17,599
didn't it didn't work i think partly

1422
00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:18,880
because espazian

1423
00:47:23,589 --> 00:47:22,160
died so quickly after that and and

1424
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:23,599
you know partly because it's hard it's

1425
00:47:27,190 --> 00:47:25,200
hard to convince people

1426
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:27,200
that there's a new it's one thing to

1427
00:47:29,910 --> 00:47:28,400
convince somebody that

1428
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:29,920
that there's a prophecy that that he's

1429
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:31,920
supposed to be the next emperor

1430
00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:33,440
it's another thing when you take the

1431
00:47:38,549 --> 00:47:36,160
next leap into the messiah and i know

1432
00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:38,559
that other

1433
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:40,559
other other roman leaders tried to do

1434
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:43,040
that but but that's a that's a tougher

1435
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:46,880
leap and i you know it it worked like if

1436
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:48,640
jesus was able to accomplish it so

1437
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:49,920
it was the time period for this kind of

1438
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,599
thing to have happened i don't think you

1439
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:52,960
and i are too part of it

1440
00:47:56,309 --> 00:47:55,440
yeah and you know the whole thing about

1441
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:56,319
jesus which

1442
00:48:00,309 --> 00:47:57,520
i don't want to get into because it kind

1443
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:00,319
of distracts from the whole conversation

1444
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:03,680
but i i think this part does cause us to

1445
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:04,079
look

1446
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:07,760
at uh the jesus narrative differently

1447
00:48:11,589 --> 00:48:10,640
as well because now they've tried it

1448
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:11,599
they've tried

1449
00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:15,040
engineering the religion it doesn't work

1450
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:17,040
in the new testament in the gospels we

1451
00:48:20,549 --> 00:48:18,480
wind up with a lot

1452
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:20,559
josephus is all over the place right

1453
00:48:24,390 --> 00:48:23,040
josephus's historical accounts now show

1454
00:48:27,670 --> 00:48:24,400
up as prophecy

1455
00:48:29,589 --> 00:48:27,680
jesus is saying line for line almost

1456
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:29,599
right out of the war of the jews only

1457
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:31,760
now it's coming out as prophecy

1458
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:36,240
rather than an historical account

1459
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,920
so the the what the scholars will say

1460
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:41,839
the biblical scholars will say is

1461
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:44,640
the gospels are dependent on josephus it

1462
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:45,440
looks like

1463
00:48:50,710 --> 00:48:48,640
they had access to josephus at least

1464
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:50,720
during some rewrites of them that

1465
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:53,760
because it's so closely tied to josephus

1466
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:56,960
but in order to kind of shift it back to

1467
00:49:01,430 --> 00:48:59,119
your book america and what you're

1468
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:01,440
speculating about in terms of the second

1469
00:49:10,390 --> 00:49:09,510
what do we think is how big of an

1470
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,400
uprising

1471
00:49:13,589 --> 00:49:12,480
is it because the other thing i'm kind

1472
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:13,599
of stumbling across

1473
00:49:17,349 --> 00:49:16,559
is that like josephus when he writes

1474
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:17,359
that

1475
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:21,040
i think he has a tendency to exaggerate

1476
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:23,760
how big of a deal it was i mean the

1477
00:49:27,430 --> 00:49:25,200
romans are all about

1478
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:27,440
going into foreign lands and then you

1479
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:28,720
know they'll get their ass kicked for a

1480
00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:30,079
little while and then they'll just come

1481
00:49:32,309 --> 00:49:31,920
back and they'll seize the thing and you

1482
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:32,319
know

1483
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:33,599
they'll send in a couple hundred

1484
00:49:38,950 --> 00:49:35,920
thousand troops and it'll be over

1485
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:38,960
i mean how many so first of all hard

1486
00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:39,760
numbers

1487
00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:42,800
do you know how many roman legions they

1488
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:43,200
sent

1489
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,240
into jerusalem to put down the second

1490
00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:48,960
rebellion i think there were eight or

1491
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,800
nine so that would be 80 or 90 000

1492
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:52,319
troops the ninth legion being one of

1493
00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:53,200
them so

1494
00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:54,880
what you said is is totally correct i

1495
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:56,960
mean eventually the romans are just

1496
00:50:02,470 --> 00:49:57,280
gonna

1497
00:50:04,309 --> 00:50:02,480
we saw that in the first rebellion with

1498
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:04,319
the uh with the assault on

1499
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:07,280
mossad the the desert fortress and the

1500
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:08,319
you know the high

1501
00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:10,640
eventually you just they just built a

1502
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:11,359
ramp

1503
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:13,680
and mowed them over but it takes time

1504
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:15,040
and so and again that's what happened

1505
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:16,960
during the varkapa uprising

1506
00:50:20,950 --> 00:50:19,280
is is that eventually you just you just

1507
00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:20,960
can't fight them off any longer they're

1508
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:21,520
too

1509
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:25,760
i do want to just circle back for a

1510
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:26,079
second

1511
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:29,440
back to to some of the evidence about um

1512
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,000
we talked about the the hanukkah fort

1513
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:33,920
but there's also a fascinating artifact

1514
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:35,520
in tennessee which ties us all together

1515
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:36,640
i don't want to get off before we're

1516
00:50:38,390 --> 00:50:37,040
done

1517
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:38,400
and that's something called the bat

1518
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:40,559
creek stone if you remember i said that

1519
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:41,040
the

1520
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:50,319
stone carving that was found by a

1521
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:52,000
smithsonian archaeologist in the late

1522
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:53,119
1800s

1523
00:50:56,950 --> 00:50:55,599
that was displayed at the smithsonian uh

1524
00:50:58,549 --> 00:50:56,960
upside down for

1525
00:51:00,230 --> 00:50:58,559
for a number of decades because i

1526
00:51:01,829 --> 00:51:00,240
thought it was cherokee script

1527
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:01,839
it was found in a burial mound and it

1528
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:03,359
was carbon dated

1529
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:04,880
artifacts with it there we go where

1530
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:07,200
carbon dated back to the second century

1531
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:09,839
um in the 1950s a jewish scholar went in

1532
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:11,280
and sort of turned her head upside down

1533
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:12,400
and said wait a second

1534
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:14,640
that's upside down that's paleo hebrew

1535
00:51:19,349 --> 00:51:15,920
second century hebrew

1536
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:19,359
and that says a comet for the jews

1537
00:51:22,870 --> 00:51:21,520
and so this was like a huge thing

1538
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,880
because i had known about this

1539
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:24,319
artifact for quite a while and it's

1540
00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:25,920
always been one of those outliers

1541
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:29,040
but now we've got the actual barkhopka

1542
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:32,160
uprising battle cry carved on an

1543
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,280
artifact

1544
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:35,520
in the ohio river valley that we know

1545
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:37,760
dates back to the second century

1546
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:40,319
we've also got coins in the ohio river

1547
00:51:45,190 --> 00:51:41,680
valley that are roman

1548
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:45,200
including in particular a barkhopka

1549
00:51:49,030 --> 00:51:47,680
uprising coin those are the ones from

1550
00:51:49,990 --> 00:51:49,040
the north shore of massachusetts i'm not

1551
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:50,000
sure if i gave you a picture

1552
00:51:56,549 --> 00:51:53,440
of the uh those are also north shore but

1553
00:51:59,030 --> 00:51:56,559
the there's an actual barcode coin so

1554
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:59,040
we have not just roman artifacts in the

1555
00:52:01,030 --> 00:52:00,319
ohio river valley but we have very

1556
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:01,040
specific

1557
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:03,119
artifacts that tie exactly to the

1558
00:52:05,829 --> 00:52:04,559
barkhopka uprising

1559
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:05,839
and to me that's what that's what sort

1560
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:07,760
of pushes over the edge it's like wow we

1561
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:09,680
don't only have roman stuff but we have

1562
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:12,800
second century judaica stuff but also

1563
00:52:15,910 --> 00:52:14,720
the the the the decalogue so the ten

1564
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,920
commandments stone again

1565
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:18,000
the ten commandments written around this

1566
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:18,960
it's almost like a

1567
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:20,720
channel clicker-like thing it says the

1568
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:22,559
ten commands and moses in it

1569
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:24,000
but again there's no reason for the

1570
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:26,480
romans to have

1571
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:28,160
fashioned these artifacts there had to

1572
00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:29,520
have been jews

1573
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:32,240
with them and so we have these jewish

1574
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:33,440
artifacts

1575
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:37,119
again carbon dating the stand

1576
00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:38,880
to the second century tells us exactly

1577
00:52:42,309 --> 00:52:40,319
when that was carved

1578
00:52:44,069 --> 00:52:42,319
okay so dave let's start pulling

1579
00:52:46,069 --> 00:52:44,079
together some of the pieces this is fun

1580
00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:46,079
and it's kind of on the fly

1581
00:52:49,349 --> 00:52:47,440
i'm just picking your brain because you

1582
00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:49,359
know this stuff i feel like any anywhere

1583
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:50,800
i go you're gonna have like

1584
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:55,200
10 new ideas so the ninth legion

1585
00:52:58,870 --> 00:52:57,280
shows up and i even want to say like one

1586
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:58,880
of the things that's interesting in that

1587
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:00,800
and that when you start studying it

1588
00:53:04,390 --> 00:53:03,040
you immediately it ties back into this

1589
00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:04,400
uh

1590
00:53:08,470 --> 00:53:06,880
atlantic barrier right these guys are

1591
00:53:10,069 --> 00:53:08,480
floating all around you know

1592
00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:10,079
one day they're up in scotland the next

1593
00:53:15,190 --> 00:53:12,000
thing up redeploy

1594
00:53:17,349 --> 00:53:15,200
over to jerusalem okay no problem

1595
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:17,359
i mean yeah that that's a tough trip

1596
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,720
yeah yeah i mean

1597
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:20,559
it's like no it's not crossing the

1598
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:22,319
atlantic but you know it's like

1599
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:25,680
just to just to have kind of a routine

1600
00:53:29,750 --> 00:53:27,599
redeployment it's not like the end of

1601
00:53:31,510 --> 00:53:29,760
the world to move the ninth legion down

1602
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:31,520
there but what i really want to ask

1603
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:32,880
and that that's why it took the romans

1604
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:34,720
so long to put these rebellions down it

1605
00:53:37,030 --> 00:53:35,359
took

1606
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:37,040
you know months and months or even years

1607
00:53:39,510 --> 00:53:38,640
to get your troops deployed eventually

1608
00:53:42,230 --> 00:53:39,520
you're going to win

1609
00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:42,240
but it just takes it takes a while to to

1610
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:43,680
get everything together so yeah go ahead

1611
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:44,240
sorry

1612
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:47,520
no no exactly because this

1613
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:50,079
this time thing is super important as

1614
00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:51,119
you point out

1615
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:53,440
the other thing about that like you said

1616
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:54,160
is that

1617
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,720
you know the people in the know the

1618
00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:58,800
upper class the ruling class

1619
00:54:02,309 --> 00:54:00,960
the give unto rome what is rome playing

1620
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,319
the smart moves

1621
00:54:05,990 --> 00:54:04,000
like you said they're looking this and

1622
00:54:09,030 --> 00:54:06,000
okay they're gonna mow us

1623
00:54:11,349 --> 00:54:09,040
down right so that's gonna happen

1624
00:54:13,829 --> 00:54:11,359
how do you think it works out if there

1625
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:13,839
are eight or nine legions there

1626
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:15,920
number one do you really do you think

1627
00:54:20,390 --> 00:54:17,680
that might be

1628
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:20,400
a bit of an exaggeration do you think

1629
00:54:25,990 --> 00:54:23,440
there's any chance that the ninth legion

1630
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:26,000
either gets there first and kind of

1631
00:54:30,549 --> 00:54:27,200
makes a deal

1632
00:54:33,030 --> 00:54:30,559
or because how would they make a deal

1633
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:33,040
with all the other legions being there

1634
00:54:35,829 --> 00:54:33,599
is there

1635
00:54:38,630 --> 00:54:35,839
another part of that story maybe that

1636
00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:38,640
we're not getting

1637
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:39,920
you know i don't i don't know we're

1638
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:41,359
speculating here but i think it's you

1639
00:54:44,470 --> 00:54:42,880
know somebody's got to be the legion

1640
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:44,480
that happens to take

1641
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:47,760
the temple while other legions are doing

1642
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:49,440
mop-up duty in the suburbs and other

1643
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:50,319
legions are out

1644
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:52,799
at masada or where you know it's just

1645
00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:54,000
somebody's got to be the legion that

1646
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:55,359
happens to be

1647
00:54:59,670 --> 00:54:58,079
there that day and and and and the

1648
00:55:00,630 --> 00:54:59,680
priestly families are cowering in the

1649
00:55:02,470 --> 00:55:00,640
corner

1650
00:55:03,670 --> 00:55:02,480
saying time out we've got a waving our

1651
00:55:05,349 --> 00:55:03,680
wedge

1652
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:05,359
waving our white flag saying we

1653
00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:07,520
surrender we want to make a deal

1654
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:10,400
and now the deal is okay let us live and

1655
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:11,040
we've got

1656
00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:13,920
access to all this gold and silver and

1657
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:14,720
treasure

1658
00:55:17,910 --> 00:55:16,720
and we want to buy our freedom you got

1659
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:17,920
to take us with you

1660
00:55:20,950 --> 00:55:19,520
and then it requires somebody in that

1661
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:20,960
ninth legion to say

1662
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:23,280
deal as opposed to no way we're bringing

1663
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:24,480
it back to the emperor

1664
00:55:27,670 --> 00:55:25,839
so there's there's a human element

1665
00:55:28,470 --> 00:55:27,680
involved in this as well but for

1666
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:28,480
whatever reason

1667
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:30,160
i think the pieces fell together that

1668
00:55:32,630 --> 00:55:31,520
day it happened to be the right people

1669
00:55:35,829 --> 00:55:32,640
making the right deal

1670
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:35,839
there was enough treasure to grease the

1671
00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:36,640
skids

1672
00:55:40,950 --> 00:55:38,640
they somehow knew where to go they had

1673
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:40,960
either had blown off courts earlier or

1674
00:55:44,549 --> 00:55:41,839
somehow knew

1675
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:44,559
about this land across the atlantic

1676
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,720
somebody had maybe had been there maybe

1677
00:55:51,589 --> 00:55:48,799
don't forget the roman legions were

1678
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:51,599
comprised of the conquered

1679
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:54,799
phoenician and carthaginian

1680
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:56,880
groups so they they they you know

1681
00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:58,240
they're like the borg and star track

1682
00:56:00,789 --> 00:55:59,359
they basically

1683
00:56:02,950 --> 00:56:00,799
they just take everybody in and that

1684
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:02,960
becomes who they are and so

1685
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:04,880
to the extent they would have the ninth

1686
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:06,559
legion by the way was based in the

1687
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:08,079
iberian peninsula so they would have had

1688
00:56:11,349 --> 00:56:08,880
plenty of

1689
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:11,359
members who have family experience as

1690
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:12,480
part of the

1691
00:56:15,990 --> 00:56:14,480
the punic wars and the carthaginians and

1692
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:16,000
the phoenicians and history

1693
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:18,799
of crossing the atlantic and navigating

1694
00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:20,400
all that all those skills have been part

1695
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:21,680
of the ninth legion

1696
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:24,640
so yeah again it's a speculative the

1697
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:25,680
pieces

1698
00:56:32,309 --> 00:56:29,040
it's great can you speak to uh

1699
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:32,319
the independence of of the

1700
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:34,400
of the different legions you know again

1701
00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:36,240
this is kind of an interesting time

1702
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:37,920
period

1703
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:40,960
so vespasian follows nero and not

1704
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:43,200
directly because in between vespasian

1705
00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:44,000
and nero is

1706
00:56:47,750 --> 00:56:46,799
this famous the four emperors in a year

1707
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:47,760
kind of thing

1708
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:49,839
which we all kind of gloss over and we

1709
00:56:53,990 --> 00:56:51,359
talk about these eras

1710
00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:54,000
like you were talking about the you know

1711
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:54,720
obama

1712
00:56:59,829 --> 00:56:58,160
trump biden era you know you know like

1713
00:57:01,430 --> 00:56:59,839
these are completely different people

1714
00:57:03,750 --> 00:57:01,440
and all this but we kind of it

1715
00:57:05,109 --> 00:57:03,760
with our lens we kind of just put them

1716
00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:05,119
all down as one thing

1717
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:08,160
but imagine four different emperors

1718
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:11,280
in a year and when vespasian takes over

1719
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:12,720
i know i'm going back a little bit but

1720
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:14,480
this is the part that i know

1721
00:57:18,230 --> 00:57:17,200
it's it's a military thing right his

1722
00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:18,240
soldiers

1723
00:57:21,589 --> 00:57:20,400
kind of promote him because in the

1724
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:21,599
streets of rome

1725
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:23,200
there's basically these different

1726
00:57:27,270 --> 00:57:25,200
legions fighting over

1727
00:57:28,309 --> 00:57:27,280
who is gonna control and who is gonna

1728
00:57:30,710 --> 00:57:28,319
take power

1729
00:57:32,150 --> 00:57:30,720
so what have you learned about

1730
00:57:34,549 --> 00:57:32,160
particularly

1731
00:57:36,309 --> 00:57:34,559
you know the ninth legion are there are

1732
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,319
they these kind of

1733
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:38,559
breakaway kind of do it our own way kind

1734
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:40,319
of guys does it fit does

1735
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:43,040
what you're suggesting fit their

1736
00:57:46,789 --> 00:57:45,280
personality

1737
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:46,799
one point on the space and the reason

1738
00:57:49,829 --> 00:57:48,240
his soldiers are so loyal to him is

1739
00:57:51,190 --> 00:57:49,839
because he was able to pay them

1740
00:57:52,789 --> 00:57:51,200
you know a lot of times these guys don't

1741
00:57:53,750 --> 00:57:52,799
get paid all of a sudden he's got the

1742
00:57:55,510 --> 00:57:53,760
temple treasures

1743
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:55,520
he can start handing out bonuses and

1744
00:57:57,589 --> 00:57:57,200
everyone's like yeah yeah he's basing

1745
00:57:59,430 --> 00:57:57,599
okay

1746
00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,440
so that makes sense right you follow the

1747
00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:01,680
money okay as far as the ninth legion

1748
00:58:04,549 --> 00:58:02,799
goes

1749
00:58:05,829 --> 00:58:04,559
uh the ninth legion had been stationed

1750
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:05,839
in

1751
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:08,240
england for a couple of generations i

1752
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:09,359
don't know the number of decades

1753
00:58:13,589 --> 00:58:12,160
many decades and so many of them were

1754
00:58:14,309 --> 00:58:13,599
were english in the sense that they

1755
00:58:17,349 --> 00:58:14,319
spoke

1756
00:58:19,829 --> 00:58:17,359
welsh they they they had uh

1757
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:19,839
english cultural attributes and whatnot

1758
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:21,520
and so when they go off to the middle

1759
00:58:24,549 --> 00:58:22,000
east

1760
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:24,559
to put down the rebellion they have no

1761
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:26,000
interest in staying there they probably

1762
00:58:28,549 --> 00:58:26,400
have

1763
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:28,559
no real ties to rome at that point

1764
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:29,440
they've been

1765
00:58:32,549 --> 00:58:30,720
generations worth of them they've

1766
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:32,559
married local women in england they've

1767
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:33,680
their kids have been raised in england

1768
00:58:37,030 --> 00:58:35,520
maybe they've been raised in england so

1769
00:58:39,829 --> 00:58:37,040
they're already inclined to go

1770
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:39,839
back and not stay in the mediterranean

1771
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:41,760
area because they're basically english

1772
00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:44,000
and what we find when we get to america

1773
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:44,960
uh the

1774
00:58:49,349 --> 00:58:47,839
in in the ohio river valley not just

1775
00:58:52,870 --> 00:58:49,359
roman stuff we find

1776
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:52,880
uh artifacts with welsh writing on it so

1777
00:58:57,349 --> 00:58:56,000
and welsh armor welsh skeletons so we

1778
00:58:59,430 --> 00:58:57,359
find a lot of stuff that

1779
00:59:01,190 --> 00:58:59,440
ties back to england because that's

1780
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:01,200
where the ninth legion was based

1781
00:59:05,190 --> 00:59:03,119
and a lot of their cultural attributes

1782
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:05,200
were english or welsh and so

1783
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:07,119
that again that part of the story ties

1784
00:59:09,349 --> 00:59:08,640
together but it goes back to your

1785
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:09,359
question which is

1786
00:59:13,030 --> 00:59:10,880
the ninth legion even though they're

1787
00:59:15,589 --> 00:59:13,040
quote-unquote roman doesn't mean they're

1788
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:15,599
italian it just means they're part of

1789
00:59:18,230 --> 00:59:16,559
this umbrella

1790
00:59:20,309 --> 00:59:18,240
that was the roman empire which

1791
00:59:21,349 --> 00:59:20,319
essentially encompassed most for all of

1792
00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:21,359
europe and

1793
00:59:25,589 --> 00:59:23,200
middle east and africa northern africa i

1794
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:25,599
mean it's huge so to be roman back then

1795
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:26,640
really just meant

1796
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:28,880
part of an empire but that wasn't your

1797
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:32,000
ethnicity ethnicity necessarily

1798
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:34,400
so dave we could we could go on and on

1799
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,359
and i could

1800
00:59:38,789 --> 00:59:37,440
try and pepper you with questions and

1801
00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:38,799
learn more and more

1802
00:59:44,789 --> 00:59:42,160
but as far as the book america

1803
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:44,799
roman facts in america which again is a

1804
00:59:47,589 --> 00:59:45,359
great

1805
00:59:49,030 --> 00:59:47,599
read and you can get the kindle version

1806
00:59:51,430 --> 00:59:49,040
for five bucks

1807
00:59:54,069 --> 00:59:51,440
or unlimited if you're kindle unlimited

1808
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,079
you can actually read it for free

1809
00:59:58,950 --> 00:59:56,079
you can check out by the way i'm not

1810
01:00:00,710 --> 00:59:58,960
sure authors authors make a nice

1811
01:00:01,910 --> 01:00:00,720
royalty even when readers do it from

1812
01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:01,920
kindle unlimited i don't know if you

1813
01:00:05,829 --> 01:00:03,359
knew that or not but

1814
01:00:07,030 --> 01:00:05,839
um yeah yeah different as to whether

1815
01:00:08,870 --> 01:00:07,040
people buy the kindle or

1816
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,880
read it on kindle unlimited i you know i

1817
01:00:11,670 --> 01:00:10,319
basically make the same so

1818
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:11,680
not that i do this necessarily for the

1819
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:12,880
money i try to make these books

1820
01:00:16,230 --> 01:00:14,640
affordable but you're not taking

1821
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:16,240
anything out of an author's pocket if

1822
01:00:20,309 --> 01:00:18,160
you read it on kindle unlimited

1823
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:20,319
great great to know i thought it was a

1824
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:21,520
little bit less

1825
01:00:25,109 --> 01:00:23,920
uh especially marginally it's not it's

1826
01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:25,119
not a big difference

1827
01:00:28,309 --> 01:00:27,680
okay great so you know please do check

1828
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:28,319
out uh

1829
01:00:32,470 --> 01:00:30,640
dave's work all those other great books

1830
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:32,480
uh what what else do we want to tell

1831
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:34,240
people do we want to leave them with

1832
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:36,880
in terms of america i i realize we

1833
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:38,319
haven't talked about it

1834
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:39,760
i think we talked about it a lot but

1835
01:00:44,710 --> 01:00:42,000
what else do we do

1836
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:44,720
sure yeah so um as you said kindle or

1837
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:46,160
paperback version

1838
01:00:50,549 --> 01:00:48,640
uh i try to keep them affordable as you

1839
01:00:52,230 --> 01:00:50,559
said 15 bucks for the paperback and less

1840
01:00:53,829 --> 01:00:52,240
than five bucks for the kindle

1841
01:00:55,270 --> 01:00:53,839
i could make a lot more money practicing

1842
01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:55,280
off that's what i was doing it for you

1843
01:00:58,549 --> 01:00:56,000
know that's not my

1844
01:01:00,069 --> 01:00:58,559
agenda but my i i am passionate about

1845
01:01:02,710 --> 01:01:00,079
this and i do

1846
01:01:04,150 --> 01:01:02,720
want other people to start focusing in

1847
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:04,160
on the idea that

1848
01:01:07,829 --> 01:01:05,760
the history that we've been taught

1849
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:07,839
really isn't as accurate as it could be

1850
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:08,480
and that

1851
01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:10,880
there are waves of explorers who've been

1852
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:12,079
crossing the atlantic

1853
01:01:15,589 --> 01:01:13,599
long before columbus i think that's an

1854
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:15,599
important part of understanding who we

1855
01:01:17,829 --> 01:01:17,280
are and what the what the world history

1856
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:17,839
is

1857
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:20,240
um so you know i always want to sort of

1858
01:01:24,549 --> 01:01:22,079
make that

1859
01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:24,559
commentary at the end but um i'd love to

1860
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:25,839
hear from readers if you have any

1861
01:01:29,190 --> 01:01:27,680
feedback if you have questions if you

1862
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:29,200
if you have artifacts i think one of the

1863
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:30,480
things we didn't talk about today i'll

1864
01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:31,280
talk real quickly

1865
01:01:34,870 --> 01:01:33,599
is just two days ago i got an email from

1866
01:01:37,109 --> 01:01:34,880
a guy down in

1867
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:37,119
the shenandoah valley in virginia who

1868
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:37,920
found

1869
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:41,359
an ancient uh ironworks

1870
01:01:45,910 --> 01:01:44,799
uh facility there and he carbonated the

1871
01:01:48,309 --> 01:01:45,920
bricks

1872
01:01:49,190 --> 01:01:48,319
he caught he did uh luminescence testing

1873
01:01:51,589 --> 01:01:49,200
on the bricks

1874
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:51,599
second century and he was always already

1875
01:01:54,309 --> 01:01:52,880
convinced that they were roman and this

1876
01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:54,319
guy came back second century

1877
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:55,680
and he was all excited because my

1878
01:01:59,270 --> 01:01:57,359
research book ends his and i'm all

1879
01:02:00,230 --> 01:01:59,280
excited because there's another artifact

1880
01:02:01,750 --> 01:02:00,240
and so

1881
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:01,760
you know readers if you read my stuff

1882
01:02:05,270 --> 01:02:03,359
and you've got stuff in your backyard

1883
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:05,280
give me a call let me know because it

1884
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:06,720
might all fit together another puzzle

1885
01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:07,440
piece

1886
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:10,079
added to the gestalt there yeah

1887
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:11,920
absolutely i'd go so far as to say

1888
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:16,319
this is the the future of

1889
01:02:20,470 --> 01:02:18,240
really the the breakthrough work in this

1890
01:02:21,430 --> 01:02:20,480
area and we have to kind of recondition

1891
01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:21,440
ourselves

1892
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:23,280
and say goodbye to academia because

1893
01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:24,880
every once in a while they'll stumble on

1894
01:02:28,710 --> 01:02:25,839
something and it'll

1895
01:02:29,190 --> 01:02:28,720
trickle out of their corrupt machine but

1896
01:02:30,950 --> 01:02:29,200
really

1897
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:30,960
this is the way that information is

1898
01:02:33,910 --> 01:02:32,480
going to go is going to come out

1899
01:02:36,789 --> 01:02:33,920
and i think we just need to change our

1900
01:02:39,990 --> 01:02:36,799
focus and not be so surprised

1901
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:40,000
you know oh my god you know dave brody

1902
01:02:42,390 --> 01:02:41,680
an attorney has written this we have to

1903
01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:42,400
go

1904
01:02:46,789 --> 01:02:44,400
now the other system is completely

1905
01:02:50,069 --> 01:02:46,799
corrupt and completely

1906
01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:50,079
rigged to project a certain narrative so

1907
01:02:53,510 --> 01:02:51,839
yeah that's where you would expect it to

1908
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:53,520
come out

1909
01:02:56,630 --> 01:02:55,359
yeah you know the lon salmetto site in

1910
01:02:58,630 --> 01:02:56,640
northern new finland

1911
01:02:59,829 --> 01:02:58,640
they were amateur archaeologists he was

1912
01:03:01,750 --> 01:02:59,839
an attorney

1913
01:03:02,950 --> 01:03:01,760
that you know they had to drag the

1914
01:03:04,789 --> 01:03:02,960
mainstream

1915
01:03:06,150 --> 01:03:04,799
archaeology community kicking and

1916
01:03:07,109 --> 01:03:06,160
screaming up there

1917
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:07,119
you know they wouldn't didn't want to

1918
01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:09,760
come look at it but it's it seems to be

1919
01:03:12,789 --> 01:03:11,520
like you said it seems to always be the

1920
01:03:15,910 --> 01:03:12,799
amateurs

1921
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:15,920
who are pushing the pushing the envelope

1922
01:03:18,789 --> 01:03:16,559
on this and

1923
01:03:20,309 --> 01:03:18,799
and and and and the professionals who

1924
01:03:23,510 --> 01:03:20,319
get dragged along

1925
01:03:24,630 --> 01:03:23,520
you know has it hesitantly but yeah i

1926
01:03:26,069 --> 01:03:24,640
think you're right about that alex i

1927
01:03:28,549 --> 01:03:26,079
think i think this is the wave this kind

1928
01:03:31,029 --> 01:03:28,559
of research is the wave of the future

1929
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:31,039
dave great work and thanks again so much

1930
01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:32,480
for joining me on skeptical it's been

1931
01:03:35,029 --> 01:03:33,680
great my pleasure you're

1932
01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:35,039
a great host thank you for having me i

1933
01:03:39,270 --> 01:03:37,280
appreciate it thanks again to dave brody

1934
01:03:40,950 --> 01:03:39,280
for joining me on skeptico

1935
01:03:42,870 --> 01:03:40,960
check out his book america i think you

1936
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:42,880
really enjoy it it's a great read

1937
01:03:49,430 --> 01:03:46,400
and as i mentioned a lot of great

1938
01:03:50,630 --> 01:03:49,440
historical references and links if you

1939
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:50,640
have the kindle version

1940
01:03:53,750 --> 01:03:52,480
you just tap and you can write over to

1941
01:03:56,390 --> 01:03:53,760
the real

1942
01:03:58,630 --> 01:03:56,400
archaeological finds and other

1943
01:04:00,150 --> 01:03:58,640
information that he has in there so do

1944
01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:00,160
check that out

1945
01:04:07,430 --> 01:04:03,839
question to tee up from this interview

1946
01:04:10,549 --> 01:04:07,440
oh boy i don't even know where to begin

1947
01:04:12,789 --> 01:04:10,559
maybe this one a simple one how fake do

1948
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:12,799
you think this history is

1949
01:04:20,710 --> 01:04:16,880
and part two skeptico

1950
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:20,720
second level is why is it fake

1951
01:04:26,470 --> 01:04:23,760
why is this history so fake

1952
01:04:27,190 --> 01:04:26,480
why do they care about keeping this

1953
01:04:29,589 --> 01:04:27,200
history

1954
01:04:31,990 --> 01:04:29,599
fake oh boy i'm tipping my hand and

1955
01:04:34,549 --> 01:04:32,000
where i intend to go on this stuff

1956
01:04:36,069 --> 01:04:34,559
let me know your thoughts talk to me

1957
01:04:38,470 --> 01:04:36,079
talk to me out there

1958
01:04:39,750 --> 01:04:38,480
skeptical form or wherever you reach me